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If you don't believe in God, how can you believe in love?
Over on the FAQ of blog Answers In Genesis BUSTED!, there's a verbose Christian commenter who's utterly gobsmacked by the concept of an apostrophe, yet has the entire universe all figured out in a way we "nothing to live for" atheists blindly refuse to see. For your amusement, I'll take the liberty here of reposting his comment and the reply I submitted.
I ask readers, whether atheist or not: Does either of these really make any more sense than the other?
First, the wordy original:
Let me tell you right now. I'm not going to convert you.
We both know only you ultimately decide for yourself what you want to believe. If you ever feel a certain way because of what I've said, maybe you should believe God is trying to tell you something. I'm not gonna, for your sake, pretend God doesn't exist. So when I say He does, you shouldn't get upset. But I know you will, and I know the reason. But since you didn't ask...I won't tell.
1) If you don't beleieve in God. Why do you believe in Love?
2) How can good and evil exist, if there is no God? How do we know of a destinction?
3) If you only see with your eyes, can you really tell me, you can love? I know its possible. Yet whenever you choose to ignore God, you lose that ability more and more. And I know thats what you've been going through. Love can't be seen, smelt, or heard. It can only be felt. So does that mean it doesn't exist? People marry because of love. Is it nothing? Its obviously not.
4) Tell me why you hate God. Do you hate all that is good and love? If you don't, then maybe its because you have the wrong idea about Him. After all if its the truth you love to much, why do you choose not to understand?
God exists. Seeing Him, isn't something I need to believe, because He is with me. Thats why I beleive. In any religion, nothing changes by them believing it. When you believe in God, He will be with you. He won't leave us on Earth with comeplete seperation and expect us to believe in Him. That will never happen. He will be with us. He will not force you to beleive. That is why we have a choice. Otherwise its not your free will. Its not a choice.
What do you, as an atheist, have to live for? Absolutley nothing. Theres no purpose or point. Is that true though, No. There is a reason. You can plainly see there is no reason without God. Its like your pretending theres a reason to keep your sanity, but then denying God. Did you think it will be simple to believe in Him. Do you think the Devil will allow you so easly to believe Him? Of course not.
Atheists will say anyway that none of this is true. But that is the very reason why its so hard for them to believe. The devil is trying to stop you. Its so easy to understand, yet I told you it won't be easy to believe in Him. Whatever I say won't make it easier so don't look for my help. Ask God to help you understand. Is it so hard to hate a God who is love? Who is nothing like anything you've thought or have been led to believe by the Devil. God is love and He made you and there is a connection, He wouldn't create you without the ability to love Him. Its not impossible to truly understand the truth. There is absolutly no reason to say God doesn't exist, when He has always been with you. He will never leave you. Have you ever thought as a child about God? And not about what people think He is, but what He truly is. You know you've been watched over. You might have felt alone but you've always known He was with you. And its probably not the idea you have of Him you've thought of, but it was Him. Don't let anyone tell you who God is. Find Him out for yourself. Not from others. To understand Him is to know Him. So find out for yourself. You may need help, and thats ok, but what I'm saying is, don't let others give you a false idea about God.
Heres a suggestion - Amazingfacts.org or .tv for videos. They can tell you all you want to know. Or any questions you have to ask. [contact info deleted]
You can email me with anything if you wish.
Then, my wordy reply:
Hi! I read your message while passing by this site, and you're right about one thing: you're not going to convert anybody with that.
A few questions for you:
1) If you don't believe in Leprechauns, why do you believe in mischief and rainbows?
2) How can light and music exist, if there is no Apollo on his golden chariot?
3) If you only see with your eyes, can you really tell me, can you fear? I know it's possible. Yet whenever you choose to ignore vampires, you lose that ability more and more. Fear can't be seen, smelt, or heard. So does that mean it doesn't exist? People hide under the covers because of fear. Is it nothing? It's obviously not.
4) Tell me why you hate elephant-headed Ganesha, the four-armed Lord of Beginnings. Do you hate His domains of art, science, intellect, and wisdom? If you don't then maybe it's because you have the wrong idea about Him or his associated Muladhara chakra. After all, if it's the truth you love so much, why do you choose not to understand?
Xenu, my Galactic Overlord, exists. Seeing Him isn't something I need to believe, because He is with me. When you believe in Xenu, He will be with you. He will not force you to believe. That is why we have a choice. Otherwise it's not your free will.
What do you, as a non-believer in Thor, have to live for? Absolutely nothing. There's no purpose, no point, no comprehension of the apostrophe in the written lies of the non-believer. You can plainly see there is no reason (and no Jötunn-slaying) without Thor or the Sky-Father, Odin. Deniers of the Hammer-Wielding, Fiery-Haired One will say anyway that none of this is true. But that is the very reason why it's so hard for them to believe. Loki and those Jötunn are trying to stop you.
Ask the Blue Fairy to help you understand. Is it so hard to hate a Fairy who is love? Who is nothing like anything you've thought or have been led to believe by sneaking chupacabra.
Allah is mercy and He made you and there is a connection, He wouldn't create you without the ability to obey Him. It's not impossible to truly understand the truth as revealed by His Messenger, Mohammed.
There is absolutely no reason to say The Invisible Girl doesn't exist, when Susan Storm has always been with you. She will never leave you. Have you ever thought as a child about superheroes? In blue spandex? Have you ever thought as a grown man about Jessica Alba? Of course you have.
You know you've been watched over. You might have felt alone but you've always known the Ghost of Elvis was with you. And it's probably not the idea you have of Elvis you've thought of, but it was the Sideburned One Himself. Don't let anyone tell you who the Ghost of Elvis is. Certainly don't believe The Colonel, or anything Priscilla says. Find Him out for yourself. Thankyouverymuch.
You may need help, and that's OK, but what I'm saying is, don't let others give you a false idea about Yahweh, the Bronze-Age deity Who slaughters children, commands rape and slavery, and hates the shrimp He created.
Here's a suggestion: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible1.htm or http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/11/17/an-evil-god-introduction/ . They can tell you all you want to know.
Good luck on your awakening!
Ah, I pity that poor fellow, ignoring the obvious existence of Xenu, Thor, and the Ghost of Elvis. And don't even get me started on the absolute truth of the angel Moroni and the Magical Golden (and Conveniently Missing) Plates!
Who can ignore the unquestionable reality of the Blue Fairy and Ganesha? Like the modern day philosopher genius Rick Warren says, I guess I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
This Christians' rhetorical questions translate into those lame accusations we hear from fundamentalists... that anyone who doesn't believe in god (their god) is immoral or amoral, has no concept of love and is a nihilist. That everything apart from their pinched view of existence is random, pointless and without meaning.There is nothing more dismissive, arrogant and bigoted than this kind of world view. It is a form of philosophical bigotry that has no place in the field of thoughtful inquiry.
Indeed. It cracks me up when an Abrahamic fundamentalist calls atheists amoral, nihilistic, and lacking meaning.
Amoral? Amorality is whining, "I have no view, or even a means of forming a view, on a moral question, other than deferring to – and never questioning – my god's decision."
Nihilistic? Nihilism is sighing, "We're sinners, we're scum, we're powerless on our own, all is lost without complete subjugation to my god (who might choose to torture me forever anyway if I don't do the subjugation thing right)."
Lacking meaning? A lack of meaning is deciding, "Only my god has meaning... so by definition, family, friends, laughter, experience, adventure, life, legacy, and everything else the atheists and I share in common must have no meaning."
Yech. No wonder more and more people are turning away from the amorality, nihilism, and meaninglessness of religion.
This Christians' rhetorical questions translate into those lame accusations we hear from fundamentalists... that anyone who doesn't believe in god (their god) is immoral or amoral, has no concept of love and is a nihilist. That everything apart from their pinched view of existence is random, pointless and without meaning.There is nothing more dismissive, arrogant and bigoted than this kind of world view. It is a form of philosophical bigotry that has no place in the field of thoughtful inquiry.
Neither Frodo, Harry Potter, nor Winnie the Pooh created or took away anything. One can make as many blind insertions as they please, although they do not necessarily pertain to what is important. No, hypothetically no one can restore an amputated limb. However, love and grace can get you through the trials of losing a part of your body. Harry Potter may have been a New York Times bestseller, but we know very well the author who wrote those books - books that were made to be fictitious. The Bible was written with the intent of sharing something real to everyone. There have been more copies found of the letters from the Bible than there have been of the findings of Plato or Socrates.
Neither Frodo, Harry Potter, nor Winnie the Pooh created or took away anything.
Indeed. And as far as we know, neither did Vishnu, Darth Vader, Yahweh, gremlins, Allah, Quetzlcoatl, or Anne of Green Gables. Which is fine; we certainly don't expect fictional characters to do things in the real world.
One can make as many blind insertions as they please, although they do not necessarily pertain to what is important.
True! One can even fill whole books of scripture with blind insertions (assertions?), yet not get to what's important.
No, hypothetically no one can restore an amputated limb.
In reality, true. (According to religion, there are gods, beings, spells, etc. that can restore limbs – though somehow never in verifiable fashion.)
However, love and grace can get you through the trials of losing a part of your body.
Exactly! Love and grace will help immensely. While supernatural beings are not yet shown to help at all.
Harry Potter may have been a New York Times bestseller, but we know very well the author who wrote those books - books that were made to be fictitious. The Bible was written with the intent of sharing something real to everyone.
Yes! Both books (or both collections of books, I should say) were written by real, live people, with the intent of sharing something - stories, beliefs, ideas. Not with the same emphasis on those components or with the same content, obviously, but the core is the same: People creating works of fiction. And in these two cases, with results that have touched many, many readers.
There have been more copies found of the letters from the Bible than there have been of the findings of Plato or Socrates.
Sorry, I honestly don't catch the gist of that closing sentence. But I appreciate the input; thanks!
Did you know there are strong correlations between religion and lack of education?I think every argument put forth by all these religious folk definitely supports this argument considering not a single religious person knows what "love" actually is. I guess I'll be the one to burst your bubbles.. "love" is a chemical reaction triggered by neurotransmissions, typically from chemicals such as dopamine and serotonin which provide a feeling of euphoria. So, evidently the so lovable god you speak of makes sense; they're both in your head :) Note: Please don't respond until someone has found some valid, conclusive evidence that "god" is real.
I think you're on to something. Love is a wonderful thing – but it's also a fuzzy, it-means-what-you-want-it-to-mean thing, and thus a convenient place to hide a god or a Jesus or a cosmic consciousness or whatever you want to stuff in there. (Convenient because the believers are rapidly running out of places to hide these things!)
So basically you're that guy in Engish class that has to correct everyone at everything and ultimately is just resentful to the whole world because God happened to gift you with insight and reason, but unfortunately you live in an unreasonable world. No amount of science or thinking or philosophy can take problems out of the world, but only genuine love and grace can get people through them: That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why God is omnipotent, and that's why God IS love. For a reasonable person you're retortment about the leprechauns was pretty ridiculous though.
So basically you're that guy in Engish class that has to correct everyone at everything
???
(Please note that your words appear in a message you're writing for the purpose of correcting somebody about something.)
and ultimately is just resentful to the whole world because God happened to gift you with insight and reason, but unfortunately you live in an unreasonable world.
Athena, the goddess of wisdom and reason, granted me those gifts. Do you deny this out of resentment?
No amount of science or thinking or philosophy can take problems out of the world, but only genuine love and grace can get people through them: That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why God is omnipotent, and that's why God IS love.
Only genuine love and grace can get people through problems*. That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why Vishnu is omnipotent, and that's why Vishnu IS love.
*Some problems. We'll both agree that neither love nor grace, nor all the gods ever created, can ever restore an amputated limb.
For a reasonable person you're retortment about the leprechauns was pretty ridiculous though.
As a reasonable person, I stand by I am retortment about Leprechauns.
I think you have the wrong idea about who or what God is. You seem to think God is a god of Love. However, the truth is God IS Love. One can believe in mischief and rainbows without believing in Leprechauns because Leprechauns are not mischief and rainbows. But one would have trouble not believing in God while believing in Love, as God is Love.
Leprechauns are not mischief and rainbows??
I think you have the wrong idea about who or what Leprechauns are. They are not creatures OF Mischief. The truth is Leprechauns ARE Mischief. One would have trouble not believing in Leprechauns while believing in Mischief, as Leprechauns are Mischief.
(But they are not, incidentally, Rainbows. That's the Prismatic Identity Heresy, of which I will say no more.)
Similarly, Unicorns ARE Bemusement. We know that Bemusement exists; therefore, Unicorns must exist as well. How could it be otherwise?
And so on. In such statements do we see the beautiful power of Faith. All things are possible through blind assertion!
(By the way, for those interested, I've detailed numerous examples describing how God is Love. It brings a tear to my eye!)
Clearly the God believer won the argument and you lost. Xenu and none of the others (including the leprechaun) has a book in almost every hotel, is one of the best selling books in the world, and is in more places (households included) than any other book? I didn't see Xenu's book at the corner store. In fact I didn't see him in those churches either, but they all had a book about this god and jesus character. Until Ganesha has books in print like this God wins. doh!
The Gideons win! They've made their mythical character real by sheer volume of paper alone! : )
Though I wonder... Based on reams of print, there's a good chance that Frodo, Harry Potter, and Winnie the Pooh are as real as Jesus now...
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