If you don't believe in God, how can you believe in love?

Over on the FAQ of blog Answers In Genesis BUSTED!, there's a verbose Christian commenter who's utterly gobsmacked by the concept of an apostrophe, yet has the entire universe all figured out in a way we "nothing to live for" atheists blindly refuse to see. For your amusement, I'll take the liberty here of reposting his comment and the reply I submitted.

I ask readers, whether atheist or not: Does either of these really make any more sense than the other?

First, the wordy original:

Let me tell you right now. I'm not going to convert you.

We both know only you ultimately decide for yourself what you want to believe. If you ever feel a certain way because of what I've said, maybe you should believe God is trying to tell you something. I'm not gonna, for your sake, pretend God doesn't exist. So when I say He does, you shouldn't get upset. But I know you will, and I know the reason. But since you didn't ask...I won't tell.

1) If you don't beleieve in God. Why do you believe in Love?

2) How can good and evil exist, if there is no God? How do we know of a destinction?

3) If you only see with your eyes, can you really tell me, you can love? I know its possible. Yet whenever you choose to ignore God, you lose that ability more and more. And I know thats what you've been going through. Love can't be seen, smelt, or heard. It can only be felt. So does that mean it doesn't exist? People marry because of love. Is it nothing? Its obviously not.

4) Tell me why you hate God. Do you hate all that is good and love? If you don't, then maybe its because you have the wrong idea about Him. After all if its the truth you love to much, why do you choose not to understand?

God exists. Seeing Him, isn't something I need to believe, because He is with me. Thats why I beleive. In any religion, nothing changes by them believing it. When you believe in God, He will be with you. He won't leave us on Earth with comeplete seperation and expect us to believe in Him. That will never happen. He will be with us. He will not force you to beleive. That is why we have a choice. Otherwise its not your free will. Its not a choice.

What do you, as an atheist, have to live for? Absolutley nothing. Theres no purpose or point. Is that true though, No. There is a reason. You can plainly see there is no reason without God. Its like your pretending theres a reason to keep your sanity, but then denying God. Did you think it will be simple to believe in Him. Do you think the Devil will allow you so easly to believe Him? Of course not.

Atheists will say anyway that none of this is true. But that is the very reason why its so hard for them to believe. The devil is trying to stop you. Its so easy to understand, yet I told you it won't be easy to believe in Him. Whatever I say won't make it easier so don't look for my help. Ask God to help you understand. Is it so hard to hate a God who is love? Who is nothing like anything you've thought or have been led to believe by the Devil. God is love and He made you and there is a connection, He wouldn't create you without the ability to love Him. Its not impossible to truly understand the truth. There is absolutly no reason to say God doesn't exist, when He has always been with you. He will never leave you. Have you ever thought as a child about God? And not about what people think He is, but what He truly is. You know you've been watched over. You might have felt alone but you've always known He was with you. And its probably not the idea you have of Him you've thought of, but it was Him. Don't let anyone tell you who God is. Find Him out for yourself. Not from others. To understand Him is to know Him. So find out for yourself. You may need help, and thats ok, but what I'm saying is, don't let others give you a false idea about God.
Heres a suggestion - Amazingfacts.org or .tv for videos. They can tell you all you want to know. Or any questions you have to ask. [contact info deleted]
You can email me with anything if you wish.

Then, my wordy reply:

Hi! I read your message while passing by this site, and you're right about one thing: you're not going to convert anybody with that.

A few questions for you:

1) If you don't believe in Leprechauns, why do you believe in mischief and rainbows?

2) How can light and music exist, if there is no Apollo on his golden chariot?

3) If you only see with your eyes, can you really tell me, can you fear? I know it's possible. Yet whenever you choose to ignore vampires, you lose that ability more and more. Fear can't be seen, smelt, or heard.  So does that mean it doesn't exist? People hide under the covers because of fear. Is it nothing? It's obviously not.

4) Tell me why you hate elephant-headed Ganesha, the four-armed Lord of Beginnings. Do you hate His domains of art, science, intellect, and wisdom? If you don't then maybe it's because you have the wrong idea about Him or his associated Muladhara chakra. After all, if it's the truth you love so much, why do you choose not to understand?

Xenu, my Galactic Overlord, exists. Seeing Him isn't something I need to believe, because He is with me. When you believe in Xenu, He will be with you. He will not force you to believe. That is why we have a choice. Otherwise it's not your free will.

What do you, as a non-believer in Thor, have to live for? Absolutely nothing. There's no purpose, no point, no comprehension of the apostrophe in the written lies of the non-believer. You can plainly see there is no reason (and no Jötunn-slaying) without Thor or the Sky-Father, Odin. Deniers of the Hammer-Wielding, Fiery-Haired One will say anyway that none of this is true. But that is the very reason why it's so hard for them to believe. Loki and those Jötunn are trying to stop you.

Ask the Blue Fairy to help you understand. Is it so hard to hate a Fairy who is love? Who is nothing like anything you've thought or have been led to believe by sneaking chupacabra.

Allah is mercy and He made you and there is a connection, He wouldn't create you without the ability to obey Him. It's not impossible to truly understand the truth as revealed by His Messenger, Mohammed.

There is absolutely no reason to say The Invisible Girl doesn't exist, when Susan Storm has always been with you. She will never leave you. Have you ever thought as a child about superheroes? In blue spandex? Have you ever thought as a grown man about Jessica Alba? Of course you have.

You know you've been watched over. You might have felt alone but you've always known the Ghost of Elvis was with you. And it's probably not the idea you have of Elvis you've thought of, but it was the Sideburned One Himself. Don't let anyone tell you who the Ghost of Elvis is. Certainly don't believe The Colonel, or anything Priscilla says. Find Him out for yourself. Thankyouverymuch.

You may need help, and that's OK, but what I'm saying is, don't let others give you a false idea about Yahweh, the Bronze-Age deity Who slaughters children, commands rape and slavery, and hates the shrimp He created.

Here's a suggestion: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible1.htm or http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/11/17/an-evil-god-introduction/ . They can tell you all you want to know.

Good luck on your awakening!

Ah, I pity that poor fellow, ignoring the obvious existence of Xenu, Thor, and the Ghost of Elvis. And don't even get me started on the absolute truth of the angel Moroni and the Magical Golden (and Conveniently Missing) Plates!

Who can ignore the unquestionable reality of the Blue Fairy and Ganesha? Like the modern day philosopher genius Rick Warren says, I guess I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Comments

Clearly the God believer won the argument and you lost. Xenu and none of the others (including the leprechaun) has a book in almost every hotel, is one of the best selling books in the world, and is in more places (households included) than any other book? I didn't see Xenu's book at the corner store. In fact I didn't see him in those churches either, but they all had a book about this god and jesus character. Until Ganesha has books in print like this God wins. doh!

defaithed's picture

The Gideons win! They've made their mythical character real by sheer volume of paper alone! : )

Though I wonder... Based on reams of print, there's a good chance that Frodo, Harry Potter, and Winnie the Pooh are as real as Jesus now...

Just because god has a book in many places does not mean that at one point in time the others didn't as well.  If you look back in history the church (and other beliefs be for that and after) destroyed most of what was there for other religions.  Plus how do we know if the guy that wrote the bible wasn't crazy we don't so why does every one still fight over whether there religion is right or wrong as long as others don't try to convert you to there religion than don't fight about it gust ignore each other so what if they don't believe in the same religion as you get over it.  And I know how annoying it is to have random people try to convert you but as long as you can tolerate it ignore it almost all religions out there say not to harm others or yourself and not to force your religion on others so if you don't like something that is like this where it is doing no one harm than just ignore it and move on.

I think you have the wrong idea about who or what God is. You seem to think God is a god of Love. However, the truth is God IS Love. One can believe in mischief and rainbows without believing in Leprechauns because Leprechauns are not mischief and rainbows. But one would have trouble not believing in God while believing in Love, as God is Love.

defaithed's picture

Leprechauns are not mischief and rainbows??

I think you have the wrong idea about who or what Leprechauns are. They are not creatures OF Mischief. The truth is Leprechauns ARE Mischief. One would have trouble not believing in Leprechauns while believing in Mischief, as Leprechauns are Mischief.

(But they are not, incidentally, Rainbows. That's the Prismatic Identity Heresy, of which I will say no more.)

Similarly, Unicorns ARE Bemusement. We know that Bemusement exists; therefore, Unicorns must exist as well. How could it be otherwise?

And so on. In such statements do we see the beautiful power of Faith. All things are possible through blind assertion!

(By the way, for those interested, I've detailed numerous examples describing how God is Love. It brings a tear to my eye!)

So basically you're that guy in Engish class that has to correct everyone at everything and ultimately is just resentful to the whole world because God happened to gift you with insight and reason, but unfortunately you live in an unreasonable world. No amount of science or thinking or philosophy can take problems out of the world, but only genuine love and grace can get people through them: That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why God is omnipotent, and that's why God IS love. For a reasonable person you're retortment about the leprechauns was pretty ridiculous though.

defaithed's picture

[quote=Visitor]

So basically you're that guy in Engish class that has to correct everyone at everything

[/quote]

???

(Please note that your words appear in a message you're writing for the purpose of correcting somebody about something.)

[quote=Visitor]

and ultimately is just resentful to the whole world because God happened to gift you with insight and reason, but unfortunately you live in an unreasonable world.

[/quote]

Athena, the goddess of wisdom and reason, granted me those gifts. Do you deny this out of resentment? 

[quote=Visitor]

No amount of science or thinking or philosophy can take problems out of the world, but only genuine love and grace can get people through them: That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why God is omnipotent, and that's why God IS love.

[/quote]

Only genuine love and grace can get people through problems*. That's why anyone is capable of love, that's why Vishnu is omnipotent, and that's why Vishnu IS love. 

*Some problems. We'll both agree that neither love nor grace, nor all the gods ever created, can ever restore an amputated limb.

[quote=Visitor]

For a reasonable person you're retortment about the leprechauns was pretty ridiculous though.

[/quote]

As a reasonable person, I stand by I am retortment about Leprechauns.

I belive that we all have different faith for me as long as we love ourselves first we can learn to love others and how can we love ourselves? To love God

Did you know there are strong correlations between religion and lack of education?I think every argument put forth by all these religious folk definitely supports this argument considering not a single religious person knows what "love" actually is. I guess I'll be the one to burst your bubbles.. "love" is a chemical reaction triggered by neurotransmissions, typically from chemicals such as dopamine and serotonin which provide a feeling of euphoria. So, evidently the so lovable god you speak of makes sense; they're both in your head :) Note: Please don't respond until someone has found some valid, conclusive evidence that "god" is real. 

defaithed's picture

I think you're on to something. Love is a wonderful thing – but it's also a fuzzy, it-means-what-you-want-it-to-mean thing, and thus a convenient place to hide a god or a Jesus or a cosmic consciousness or whatever you want to stuff in there. (Convenient because the believers are rapidly running out of places to hide these things!)

Neither Frodo, Harry Potter, nor Winnie the Pooh created or took away anything. One can make as many blind insertions as they please, although they do not necessarily pertain to what is important. No, hypothetically no one can restore an amputated limb. However, love and grace can get you through the trials of losing a part of your body. Harry Potter may have been a New York Times bestseller, but we know very well the author who wrote those books - books that were made to be fictitious.  The Bible was written with the intent of sharing something real to everyone. There have been more copies found of the letters from the Bible than there have been of the findings of Plato or Socrates.

defaithed's picture

[quote=Visitor]

Neither Frodo, Harry Potter, nor Winnie the Pooh created or took away anything.

[/quote]

Indeed. And as far as we know, neither did Vishnu, Darth Vader, Yahweh, gremlins, Allah, Quetzlcoatl, or Anne of Green Gables. Which is fine; we certainly don't expect fictional characters to do things in the real world.

[quote=Visitor]

One can make as many blind insertions as they please, although they do not necessarily pertain to what is important. 

[/quote]

True! One can even fill whole books of scripture with blind insertions (assertions?), yet not get to what's important.

[quote=Visitor]

No, hypothetically no one can restore an amputated limb.

[/quote]

In reality, true. (According to religion, there are gods, beings, spells, etc. that can restore limbs – though somehow never in verifiable fashion.)

[quote=Visitor]

However, love and grace can get you through the trials of losing a part of your body.

[/quote]

Exactly! Love and grace will help immensely. While supernatural beings are not yet shown to help at all.

[quote=Visitor]

Harry Potter may have been a New York Times bestseller, but we know very well the author who wrote those books - books that were made to be fictitious.  The Bible was written with the intent of sharing something real to everyone.

[/quote]

Yes! Both books (or both collections of books, I should say) were written by real, live people, with the intent of sharing something - stories, beliefs, ideas. Not with the same emphasis on those components or with the same content, obviously, but the core is the same: People creating works of fiction. And in these two cases, with results that have touched many, many readers.

[quote=Visitor]

There have been more copies found of the letters from the Bible than there have been of the findings of Plato or Socrates.

[/quote]

Sorry, I honestly don't catch the gist of that closing sentence. But I appreciate the input; thanks!

This Christians' rhetorical questions translate into those lame accusations we hear from fundamentalists... that anyone who doesn't believe in god (their god) is immoral or amoral, has no concept of love and is a nihilist. That everything apart from their pinched view of existence is random, pointless and without meaning.There is nothing more dismissive, arrogant and bigoted than this kind of world view. It is a form of philosophical bigotry that has no place in the field of thoughtful inquiry.

This Christians' rhetorical questions translate into those lame accusations we hear from fundamentalists... that anyone who doesn't believe in god (their god) is immoral or amoral, has no concept of love and is a nihilist. That everything apart from their pinched view of existence is random, pointless and without meaning.There is nothing more dismissive, arrogant and bigoted than this kind of world view. It is a form of philosophical bigotry that has no place in the field of thoughtful inquiry.

defaithed's picture

Indeed. It cracks me up when an Abrahamic fundamentalist calls atheists amoral, nihilistic, and lacking meaning.

Amoral? Amorality is whining, "I have no view, or even a means of forming a view, on a moral question, other than deferring to – and never questioning – my god's decision."

Nihilistic? Nihilism is sighing, "We're sinners, we're scum, we're powerless on our own, all is lost without complete subjugation to my god (who might choose to torture me forever anyway if I don't do the subjugation thing right)."

Lacking meaning? A lack of meaning is deciding, "Only my god has meaning... so by definition, family, friends, laughter, experience, adventure, life, legacy, and everything else the atheists and I share in common must have no meaning."

Yech. No wonder more and more people are turning away from the amorality, nihilism, and meaninglessness of religion.

To be honest, I didnt read all of the back and forth comments; I skimmed and cliffnoted my way to the bottom. That being said; A more base way of asking "How can someone believe in love if they dont believe in God"; would be: "How can someone believe in a feeling of such immensity that it has the power to alter history (any feeling really, love, hate, fear, sorrow, etc.); If all humans are, is an end result of a galactic collision of particles? Im hoping to get a well thought out and intelligent discussion here on an atheists view of evolution, the possibilty of a soul, art, love, etc. Im not going to tell you your wrong, God didnt tell me I was wrong before I knew him, and it wouldnt be fair for me to say that to you. All I ask is the same in reciprocation.

To be honest, I didnt read all of the back and forth comments; I skimmed and cliffnoted my way to the bottom. That being said; A more base way of asking "How can someone believe in love if they dont believe in God"; would be: "How can someone believe in a feeling of such immensity that it has the power to alter history (any feeling really, love, hate, fear, sorrow, etc.); If all humans are, is an end result of a galactic collision of particles? Im hoping to get a well thought out and intelligent discussion here on an atheists view of evolution, the possibilty of a soul, art, love, etc. Im not going to tell you your wrong, God didnt tell me I was wrong before I knew him, and it wouldnt be fair for me to say that to you. All I ask is the same in reciprocation.

defaithed's picture

"How can someone believe in a feeling of such immensity that it has the power to alter history (any feeling really, love, hate, fear, sorrow, etc.); If all humans are, is an end result of a galactic collision of particles?"

Hello! First, an aside to the world in general: Where does this silliness about "collision of particles" come from? It's the creationist strawman about "random events" and "a tornado assembling a 747 from junk" and so on. In the real world, scientists are adamant that galaxies and humans and figs do not come about through particles randomly colliding into the forms of stars and kittens and what not, but through natural processes. There's a library's worth of commentary to be made on that, but the super-short version: Stars didn't just "happen"; rather, given the natural process of things coming together through gravity, it'd be darned hard to imagine stars not forming in this universe. And given the natural process of descent with modification through natural selection (i.e., "Darwinian evolution"), it'd be near impossible to describe a universe in which populations don't diverge through evolution.

In short, humans are the end result of physical laws, physical properties, and natural processes. Far too big a topic to play with here, but there's nothing "tornado in a junkyard" about it. (Which was not your wording, I know, but I wanted to address those who do use those words.)

And so on. So, restating the question to more correctly accomodate the non-religious view of origins:

"How can someone believe in feelings of immensity (love, hate, fear, sorrow, etc.) if humans are the result of natural forces and properties, not divine creation?"

The simple answer: Er, what's the connection between feelings and divine creation? Why would humans have to be divinely created in order to experience those feelings? What in the world suggests that humans resulting from a natural universe wouldn't experience those feelings?

I believe the relevant term here is "begging the question". We can't start with the assumption that human feelings can only come about through divine creation, and essentially declare it to be true because we've assumed it. That's never worked well in the past. Think about it:

People thought disease had to come from gods or spirits. But it turns out it was bacteria and viruses. People assumed lightning had to come from a god. Turns out to be an equalizing of disparate electrical charges. People believed that only divine creation could explain the diversity of life forms. Turns out that evolutionary theory does an awesome job of explaining the diversity through natural processes alone.

How about the richness of human feelings? We hardly know all there is to know about the topic. As we dig deeper, will we turn up divine beings? Given the track record of gods so far (as of 2012, there are precisely zero phenomena known to be caused by supernatural entities), I wouldn't bet on gods making an appearance here, either.

Thank you!!! Finally an intelligent argument (discussion) instead of....for lack of a better word, douchbags throwing ideas at eachother. Now; those things that were attributed to God(s), sickness, lightning, etc. were done so because of lack of proof. As soon as science explained things of that nature, the Gods ceased to be. Proof negates faith. Plain and simple. God will never proove himself because it takes faith out of the equation. Feelings. Well, is love (or other emotions) simply a fireing of electrons or displacement of chemicals? I doubt it. Do we have solid undeniable proof that our familys or spouses etc. love us? No. We hear their words, see their actions, feel their touch, and translate that into "they must love us because...." but proof? There is none. We (you and I) atheist and christian, have faith that the people in our lifes love us. Despite their actions. Is love simply a means to an end for the continuation of our species? No way will that ever be a solid argument. We can and continue to reproduce without love. With stranger, with people we just met tonight at the bar and so on. Now ready for some uber-christianity? We love because were loved. How can someone who doesnt have proof that something exists, believe in it?

defaithed's picture

Hello there! I'm not getting a clear point from your comment, but I'd like to comment on the multiple appearance of the word "proof". True, we can say that there is no concrete "proof" of our loved ones' love for us. But scientists, and other people seriously concerned with how we can know what's true, point out that we arguably can't produce definitive "proof" of anything. What we can come up with, and what does inform us of what is true, is evidence.

So on that question of love among people: It's not about proof per se; it's about evidence. When we feel or "know" that our loved ones love us, we do base that on evidence (even if that word itself never comes to mind during the process). It's an important point.

Now ready for some uber-christianity? We love because were loved.

We love for, and only for, that reason? Why that claim? What's the evidence for it?

My point is, you belive in something despite of proof or "evidence". Unless actions signify evidence? In that case every guy who has ever been with a prostitute loves her. He gives evidence of her physical body attracting his, he gives evidence of his care for her financial situation by paying her, he gives evidence of his respect for her by abiding by whatever rules she puts in place beforehand. Actions and words are not evidence of love. And I dont need evidence of that "we love because were loved" I have faith in it. You have faith your mom loves you. Why is hard for you to have faith that God loves you? Is it because of lack of evidential actions? If so, I feel bad for you man. Your entire concept of love is based around the actions of a second or third party. Not on you. Im praying for you man. God loves us despite any action or inaction. We just gotta have faith. The faith we have that our parents love us isnt far off from the faith you need to KNOW that God loves us.

defaithed's picture

My point is, you belive in something despite of proof or "evidence".

Well, let's be clear: you do; I don't.

To add a bit of complexity, there's the related matter of provisionally accepting something as true when a) it's a perfectly reasonable claim, b) it would be demonstrable if we wanted to check into it, and c) its truth or falseness doesn't seem terribly important. If you say can drive a car, I'll provisionally believe that without demanding proof; it's a reasonable claim (many people drive cars), we could demonstrate that you can do it, and there's also the factor of "Okay, so you can drive; what's the point?"

But if the claim were less mundane, or were important, then sure, I'd want evidence. I suspect that you, too, would wisely demand evidence for a million claims we could think of: "this used car runs great", "the moon landings were faked", "this supplement will make you stronger", "Allah is the one God and Mohammed is His prophet", and so on.

But you seem happy to make big exceptions, too..

In that case every guy who has ever been with a prostitute loves her. 

No, no, no. What you go on to describe is a fellow providing ample evidence of sexual desire and the willingness to engage in a transaction to sate it. Evidence of lust. It is possible for him to love the woman, of course, but that's precisely the point: we'd all roll our eyes at such a claim of love unless the guy showed evidence of feeling something beyond wanting to exchange money for sex.

(Or perhaps buying sex actually fits your definition of "love", in which case I'm the one feeling sorry for you there!)

Actions and words are not evidence of love.

Why would you say that? Why the disrespect for actions and words?

You have faith your mom loves you.

Because I have evidence for it! Some mothers don't love their children, and the evidence is there: neglect, abuse, etc. My mother sacrificed for her kids, cooked and sewed for them, worked hard to pay for meals and school... That's awesome evidence of love, and I'm not about to throw it away and say it's evidence of nothing!

Why is hard for you to have faith that God loves you? Is it because of lack of evidential actions? If so, I feel bad for you man. Your entire concept of love is based around the actions of a second or third party. Not on you. Im praying for you man. God loves us despite any action or inaction. We just gotta have faith. The faith we have that our parents love us isnt far off from the faith you need to KNOW that God loves us.

Why is it hard for you to have faith that Allah is the one true God and Mohammed is His prophet? 

Why is it hard for you to have faith that your karma will determine your next incarnation in the cycle of birth and rebirth?

Why is it hard for you to have faith that the apocalypse is coming on December 21 this year, and our salvation lies only with the alien space arks?

We can spend all day listing the beliefs that you flat-out refuse to have faith in. It's amazingly arrogant for the believer to imagine that his preferred faith exists in a special position, magically exalted above all those other obviously wrong faiths, where it alone faces the opposing force of non-faith. That's oh-so-arrogant. Other people's faiths are of the same merit as yours!! Your faith exists in the same big pot as faith in reincarnation, faith in the gods of Olympia, faith in voodoo spells, faith in communication with aliens on the astral plane, and countless other bizarre and mutually contradictory faiths.

Unless, that is, you can explain how your faith isn't like those other faiths. An awesome way to do that would, of course, be evidence! That could lift your faith right up out of that other mess of imaginary nonsense, and place it high up there with... 

Oh, but wait... you want to reject evidence. Oh. Too bad. Well, what else you got then?

Yes I do beleive in something without proof. Its called faith. And yes, you believe in your mothers love with proof. Its called faith. You see your mothers actions and translate them into "she must love me because..." (didnt we go through this already?) Actions arent proof of love. How can they be? Your mothers sewing and sacrificing amd cooking couldnt have even remotley been for another reason? Maybe she felt guilty because she didnt really want children in the first place, but none the less had them so had to provide for them out of guilt amd shame? Or maybe she was just ensureing the continuation of her species? Why couldnt her actions display either of my two examples??? My faith is different from the others, because the bible outright says its the only true and real faith!! Wait, you dont believe in the bible as truth. So, find another faith where their "god" says they are the only one. And the only way to eternal life is through them. Find it.

defaithed's picture

...didnt we go through this already?

Yes, but apparently someone wasn't listening. We intelligently base beliefs on evidence. (Not "proof" per se.)

People unintelligently base belief on something else. Your cue:

My faith is different from the others, because the bible outright says its the only true and real faith!!

Replace "Bible" with "Koran", and you could be a Taliban spokesperson.

Wait, don't stop there – it even works, mutatis mutandis, with pretty much any religion! Maybe they're all true!!!

So this is where we are: your mother doesnt love you. You have evidence of something that your mind translates as love because your to scared to admit its anything else; when in fact, it very well could be. Also, the other faiths dont proclaim they are THE ONLY FAITH. Christianity does. Big difference.

defaithed's picture

[quote=Visitor]Also, the other faiths dont proclaim they are THE ONLY FAITH. Christianity does. Big difference.[/quote]

Are you new to this planet? Ask an imam whether Islam is THE ONE TRUE FAITH. Arrogant claims of being the One True Faith are anything but unique to Christianity!

(Now, for some extra-credit amusement, ask dozens of Christians which specific sect of Christianity is the specific One True Faith. See how many times you get this answer: "Mine, of course! The other Christians are doing it wrong!" You know, Christians used to routinely kill each other over not having the right version of the One True Faith...)

Anyway. I appreciate your passionate comments in what I gather is not your native language. But I'm not sensing anything of value coming of this exchange. Feel free to start afresh commenting on some new topic in another article, if you like.

I have just found this site, and have been howling through it. (Some older posts & comments, some not so old.) I have been laughing so hard that it took me half an hour just to read this post...I had to keep stopping to wipe my eyes, as the tears were blinding me. Thanks for the entertaining yet highly effective answers to the many ridiculous claims made by nonthinkers! I look forward to many hours on your site.

Your welcome!! Atheist stupidty while sad, is often times hilarious. It seems thay when someone cant open their mind enough to believe in God, they call us close minded. Lol. Sad but true. Enjoy the posts :-)

Who are you and why are you responding to my comment in which I expressed appreciation of this SITE?  You are not the one responsible for the site and the posts; you only comment on them. Thank you, DEFAITHED!

defaithed's picture

Oh, good lords, have you not been paying attention? Let's go through the ritual:

It seems thay when someone cant* open their mind enough to believe in God...

Here we go:

When people can't open their minds enough to believe in Mohammed...

When people can't open their minds enough to believe in Xenu...

When people can't open their minds enough to believe in Brahma...

When people can't open their minds enough to believe in Ramtha...

Repeat with thousands more figures from cults, superstitions, New-Age goofiness, etc. Where do you go from there?

 

* (Hey, are you the person I initially quote, baffled by the Sacred Mystery of the Apostrophe?)

Hooray for word games!! :-) Nice argument atheist. Lol. The christian is saying you cant call someone closeninded when; in fact, their mind is more open than yours.

defaithed's picture

If you define "open-minded" as "I'll believe anything!", then yes, a Christian believer is more open-minded than I am. (So is an Islamic believer, a crystal healing believer, an alien abduction believer...)

I'm interested in the truth of claims and beliefs, not in "I know you are, but what am I?" exchanges. If you've got some evidence attesting to the factual truth of the supernatural claims of Christianity, or Scientology, or Zoroastrianism, etc., the world is waiting to hear it.

" If you've got some evidence attesting to the factual truth of the supernatural claims of Christianity". This is what you're not getting: God is supertnatural. There's no 'proving' he exists. It's faith. He's unexplanable, indescribable. Look, we're all searching for something, some solace, some security to relieve our fears of the unkwown (whether we admit this or not). I'm led to believe that, like many, you're seeking solace through what you see as science and 'logic'. Many people look at Jesus Christ, the Bible, and God and dislike the idea of being punished and see the Bible as telling you to follow God's 'twisted' rules or suffer in hell. [In actuality, Jesus, having gone through life as a human himself, knew we weren't perfect. That is why he called on us to have FAITH and believe in him that we might receive His grace to strengthen us instead of just depending on our weak-minded selves –think lust, envy, grudges, anger, etc.] Being afraid of this, people react defensively. They put all their marbles into 'science' and 'logic' and what we can actually see and prove and would be relieved in their hearts if there was a way to disprove God's existence. Since they can't do this, many spend their time bickering and insulting those who believe because 'you guys are sheep', 'god does not exist' etc. Whereas deep down, it's their fear of the unknown that's driving them to go out of their way to call out 'Christians' (people who have accepted Jesus). Let me tell you something. You and many others actively contradict the scientific front that you put up. Look at the most revolutionary discoveries in science: people couldn't fathom the idea of an atom or that the world was flat. What if everyone had your mindset? What if they thought that just because they couldn't fathom or understand the theories being proposed, that because such ideas were not normal, because these ideas might have seemed SUPERNATURAL, that therefore the theories should be flat-out rejected? Where would science be? We both know that in many ways it was unfathomable theories that revolutionized science. Btw, you ‘have no proof’, ‘cannot prove’ that God does not exist. "I'm interested in the truth of claims and beliefs, not in "I know you are, but what am I?" exchanges." It's actually sad how prevalently people accuse others of things they themselves are guilty for. You're looking for 'factual truth' but what you don't realize is that this only shows forth your true agenda. This site is in no way open-minded and you know that. Your input is even worse than the exchanges you describe. You’re basically doing this: “I know I’m right, you’re wrong, and you’re a bigot for believing what you believe”.  As I've stated before, God is supernatural, there's no proving Him. At the heart of my point is this: Just because 'defaithed' doesn't believe in God & Jesus Christ, just because many don't like the idea of going to hell, just because you see something wrong with the bible, just because you dislike feeling guilty and shame (when you don't actually look into why you feel this way).....does that cancel the legitimacy of God? Just because naysayers didn’t believe and couldn’t fathom the existence of an atom, does that mean an atom didn’t exist? Just didn’t believe the world was round, does that mean it wasn’t? There's a prevalent argument that we humans are innately good. I've heard the classic 'humans don't need a Higher Being, we're good by ourselves.’ Firstly, those who say this are looking at the situation terribly wrong. 'Humans don't need a Higher Being'. This desperately implies that believers made God up to somehow feel good/bad about themselves. No, children of God believe he created us. We didn't 'make him up'. Secondly, humans (deep down, with varying degrees of deepness) intend for good, but on our own (with no faith) we are easily polluted.  'Why don’t   believe in other religions' you may ask? 'They could be true.' Jesus knows what I’m going through; he knows that we are imperfect in that we are easily polluted. You know that feeling after you've done something 'bad'. Whether you like it or not, the guilt, the 'moral compass', that conscience that we constantly push to the side and hide from is there in some form or the other. Trusting in Jesus, that he sacrificed himself, innocent of sin, for me gives me grace to not buckle under pressure, to not return to those 'bad ways' that so nag at my heart. You might not like to admit it to yourself, but death isn't something that many like to think about. ‘We only live once so why not do whatever we want’ right? Well there is another life: in heaven, or in hell. People want to have good legacies. 'Will people remember me, will they still love me' etc. They wouldn't want their lasting memories to be of bickering, insulting, fear and such. I want the answer to 'was I worth Jesus dying for me?' to be a definite Yes. Now am I perfect? No, none of us are. But by the Lord’s grace, I am strengthened. Let's see if we'll have a civil discussion about this or if you'll disregard your own accusations and throw petty insults at me because you dislike what I'm saying.

defaithed's picture

Thank you for the long input. For better or worse, my reply in return is long too. Lengthy, multiply-nested coments on web pages can get hard to read, so I'm going to take the liberty of making my reply a new post, here

I'm a Christian, which is irrelevant except to add emphsize to my next two sentances. GOD FUCKING DAMNIT!!! BREAK UP YOUR FUCKING PARAGRAPHS!!!Also, don't care if this is a year old, breaking up chunks of text is a nondenominational value (except for those heathen chunkites)

defaithed's picture

Amen. : ) I'd be perfectly happy to take the 10 Commandments, toss out silly items like "no graven images", or ignored items like "keep the Sabbath", and instead put in "Thou shalt break up your frookin' paragraphs."

(In defense of the verbose commenter, though, I should say: I've seen the commenting system break once or twice and strip away people's formatting, including paragraph breaks. I don't think that was the case here, as the comment does maintain bold text, but I'll allow it's possible...)

defaithed's picture

Thank you, you are too kind. I'll do my best to post more. In the meantime, please take a peek at the (still too short) Links page for even better sites by others!

I say to all believers of any faith, superstition, or cult, Bless your heart!  I say feel free to believe in anything that encourages you to be a good person.  but really, I'd rather enjoy this life NOW instead of refraining from having a good time just on the nonexistent chance of heaven , i could not imagine being stuck in "heaven" with a bunch of "No Fun Neddys". 

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